Talk:Lebanon/Archive 12

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Archive 12

Fake Emblem

Lebanon does not have an official emblem, so it should not appear in the infobox, as shown in the Turkey article. The cedar tree is used in a de facto capacity on some Lebanese documents, but other variations of the cedar or the flag are also used in some cases, so putting a fake emblem in the infobox is unnecessary and misleading. Bill Williams 19:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

The official emblem of Lebanon is the cedar tree. See Israel article that also uses emblems.JJNito197 (talk) 19:29, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Provide a single reliable source that says that the cedar tree is Lebanon's emblem. Bill Williams 05:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, ”fake” is the wrong word. Clearly it is not a “fake” national emblem - the Lebanese state and institutions use it in several contexts as noted in this source and this one. Secondly, there are plenty of sources that describe it as Lebanon’s emblem such as this, this or this, or this. Sometimes sources describe it as the national symbol e.g. here, here, or here. Thirdly, I think the point you are tryng to make is that the cedar tree does not have an “official” status (rather than it being “fake”). But what is “official” and why is that a criteria for the infobox? I suspect there isn’t a piece of Lebanese legislation which formally adopted it but as this source says it’s “widely considered” to be the national emblem. That’s good enough. We use plenty of symbols, both past and present, not “formally” adopted in that way but which are so extensively used as to make that irrelevant. At most it could warrant a footnote saying it hasn’t been “officially” adopted - if you can fnd a source to support that statement that is. DeCausa (talk) 10:26, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

None of those load, please provide a reliable source that isn't a book link to something I can't read. The emblem varies on different uses, so putting a single one at the top of the wikipedia article when it is not de jure is misleading. Bill Williams 23:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

There are 10 reliable sources there. If you can’t view Google books, you’ll need to sort that out yourself. DeCausa (talk) 06:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

This page is chronologically historically unbalanced.

The page seems to focus disproportionately on relatively recent events of the last couple of decades and skip over or skim the surface of many historical events of earlier periods. This needs rectification! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Francogrex (talk • contribs) 20:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed: the recent event definitely need trimming. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:16, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Edit semi protected

In the intro, after the sentence mentioning its religious diversity, can the sentence “Lebanon is considered to be part of the Levant region of the Middle East” it is important to the country’s identity?2600:100C:A201:2245:ECEA:1830:84FF:D32E (talk) 05:21, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Of the universe (talk) 09:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hello @Bbx118:, can you explain your edits and rv please, per Wikipedia:Synthesis and the sources provided the info box is as it stands is sufficent. The Islam section is treated exactly the same as the other denominations - there are 18 state-recognized religious sects, 12 Christian, 5 Muslim (including Druze), 1 Jewish. Merging the sects under the catch all banner of "Catholic" or "Orthodox" would be Wikipedia:No original research and Synth as the denominations are not measured as such per sources provided for the specific religious sects. The schools of Islam (maddhab) within Sunni and Shia are not specified/measured as such. Thank you. JJNito197 (talk) 17:24, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@Zlogicalape

Zlogicalape, please read WP:ONUS and agree seek to obtain consesnsus here before reverting again per WP:BRD. Don't edit war. DeCausa (talk) 17:29, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2022

Change ethnicity from Arab to Canaanite Source:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-canaanite-lebanese-genetics-20170727-story.html 185.76.177.54 (talk) 11:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

 Already done In the 'ethnicity' section of the infobox there is a note saying " Many Lebanese Christians do not identify as "Arab" but rather as descendants of the ancient Canaanites and prefer to be called "Phoenician"".

Thanks for your request! Wikipedia is better when users work to improve it! Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 01:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Please change this to some “Some Lebanese Christians” as it is not only Maronites who object to the usage of “Arab”. 2600:100C:A21C:E44E:8DBA:2280:EBCA:EF37 (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Small error in the religious demographics

The CIA World Factbook estimates (2020) the following (data does not include Lebanon's sizable Syrian and Palestinian refugee populations): Muslim 67.8% (31.9% Sunni, 31.2% Shia, smaller percentages of Alawites and Ismailis), Christian 32.4% (Maronite Catholics are the largest Christian group), Druze 4.5%, and very small numbers of Jews, Baha'is, Buddhists, and Hindus.

This should be Muslim 63.1%. Otherwise you end up over 100%. The mistake is present in the source. 2A02:A46B:202B:1:43D4:9275:33DC:6E9B (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2023

Third language spoken is English. 2A02:1210:3A75:B500:50E1:18FA:1CA1:773 (talk) 23:25, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2023

(MINOR EDIT) In the section French Mandate, the last sentence of the first short paragraph has several errors and does not flow properly. To fix this, first, the comma following "Syria" is changed into a period. Second, the sentence after the period is rewritten to be "However, following the Franco-Syrian war, the Arabs were defeated and the Hashemites capitulated.". Third, this last sentence lacks a source, so a citation is needed. Fourth, I would make the two short paragraphs into one as this would make more sense given the content and the way the reader reads the information. WhoppingWikiEditor (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this last sentence lacks a source, so a citation is needed. – As the requesting editor, the burden of providing reliable sources for your claims is yours. The sentence flows okay currently, but becomes ungrammatical under your suggested edit: The United Kingdom, fearing that Nazi Germany would gain full control of Lebanon and Syria. small jars tc 17:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

it is not my claim that I requested a source for. It is the information that is already presented that has no source. I have not added any new information to this section. I merely suggest that the information as it currently is presented is reworded because it is grammatically incorrect and there are words missing. WhoppingWikiEditor (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Map

The map appears to show Judea and Samaria as part of Jordan. This is incorrect, unless you believe that Jordan annexed Judea and Samaria in 1949, contrary to international law and all relevant UN resolutions Helpfulguy101 (talk) 19:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I take it that you want it shown as part of the State of Palestine? I can't see a map on this page which includes the West Bank. Which map are you referring to? DeCausa (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Lebanon Product Exports (2019).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:09, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2023

{{subst:trim|1=

| ethnic_groups =

• 95% Arab

AtallaAdam (talk) 13:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This classification is from the CIA and is the primary source for ethnic groups in all country-related articles. There are people like refugees like Palestinians and Syrians) They make up approximately 30% to 40% of the Lebanese population. They are attributed to the word "Lebanese". If you are one of the people who look at genes, so I want to tell you all the people of the world are mixed genes and what defines an ethnicity now from the rest of the peoples is on a linguistic and cultural basis. Sarah Schneuwly -Schneider (talk) 14:02, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

hello, requesting the possibility of the change the term "Arab" to "Lebanese", "Lebanese Arab" or even "Arabized Levantine", "Levantine", "Levantine Lebanese", due to the fact majority of Lebanese are also either Multi-ethinc people, and the term "Arab" regardless of religious background do attend to offend many Lebanese, including majority of Lebanese "Arabized Lebanese/Levantine people" are of J2, and even R1b Haplo-origins https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/ , https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml , they share common genetics with other Northern Levantine communities, and/or even Armenians, and Chaldeo-Assyrians, and so on.

however maybe those are possible changes too.

I appreciate it.

Population

As the matter is now in dispute, we require the participation of others. I have observed that the editor has used a manipulative method by citing sources that alter the percentage of convergence, which is not representative of the entire population, but rather a single website's data on the number of refugees registered with the UNHCR. To illustrate, there are Palestinian refugees from Syria, and I believe that the CIA, a reputable and established source for many population-related articles, provides the most accurate and deliberate information.Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 18:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

• The percentage tally of the Lebanese ethnic group needs a cite otherwise it comes under WP:SYNTH. JJNito197 (talk) 06:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Sarah SchneiderCH, I assume that I am the said editor that you are discussing. In the future when discussing other users please be sure to mention them as I have done for you so that they can be aware of the discussion. In regards to your claim that I have used a "manipulative method" I would advise you to assume good faith per Wikipedia policy. I am willing to have a conversation in regards to the subject of the population of Lebanon but after seeing your accusation of me on the dabke page: "All the addition of this information by a person belonging to a certain national thought, this is evident from his name and contributions (User Red Phoenician)" even when I had not added all of mentioned information, as well as your going so far as to edit my Wikimedia uploads WP:HOUNDING, I would recommend reading Wikipedia:No personal attacks before we can continue. If you continue to stalk my edits and antagonize me then this discussion will be fruitless.

I would also advise to review edit summaries before publishing them as you have now reverted multiple times other edits unrelated to this subject unless you are also arguing that all Protestants in Lebanon are Evangelical and that you are contesting this text source [1].

For the WP:SYNTH point brought up I have found a reliable source [2] that discusses the Lebanese, as well as the Syrian and Palestinian (among other minorities), populations in Lebanon. Red Phoenician (talk) 09:03, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Source summary: Lebanon has a population of approximately 5.8 million people, including 4.5 million citizens and 1.3 million refugees from Syria and Iraq. The majority of the citizen population are Muslims, with 31.9% Sunni and 31% Shia, while 32.4% of the population are Christians, including Maronite Catholics and Greek Orthodox. There are also small populations of Druze, Jews, Baha'is, Buddhists, and Hindus. UNHCR estimates that there are 1.3 million Syrian refugees in Lebanon, while UNRWA estimates that there are 250,000 to 280,000 Palestinians living in the country as UN-registered refugees. Additionally, there are approximately 14,000 UNHCR-registered Iraqi refugees in the country, mostly Sunni Kurds, Sunni and Shia Muslims, and Chaldeans, as well as some Coptic Christians from Egypt and Sudan. SO can you explain to us based on your percentage distribution? Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I assume the issue is the exclusion of Iraqis. Starting with the total population of 5,800,000 we have 4,500,000 of those which are Lebanese citizens and nationals. Out of the 1,300,000 total estimate population of Syrian, Palestinian, and Iraqi refugees when subtracting the 280,000 Palestinians and 14,000 Iraqis from the 1.3 million number we are left with 1,006,000 Syrian refugees. All of these numbers combined with the citizens amount total to exactly 5,800,000 which is the estimated total population amount as mentioned previously above.

Thus this makes the corrected statistics:

• 77.6% Lebanese
• 17.3% Syrian
• 4.9% Palestinian
• 0.2% Iraqi

Which equals a total of 100% (I will leave open the issue of whether or not the numbers should be rounded as this excludes Iraqis who are less than 1% of the estimated total population)

Also, you have again simply undid the previous edit without reviewing the other edits that have been jumbled together with it as I have previously pointed out. I will revert these specific edits as they are not related to the current dispute. Red Phoenician (talk) 21:14, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Red Phoenician Where are the Arameans (they were 4% last time)? Kurds and others?

It is clear that the problem complements the term "Arab". Since the last amendment made in the article, the word Arab was deleted next to the word Arab Levantine. Many words have been omitted from articles related to Lebanon and its personality, such as a Lebanese-American who is considered one of the most famous Arab Americans has been replaced by a Middle Eastern Americans. Here it comes down to how you are sourcing your attempt to remove this Arab word. Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I do not understand where you got the statistic for Aramean from. I assume you confused Armenian with Aramean. The Armenians along with other ethnic minorities can be included in a footnote under Lebanese citizens. As for the Kurds I do not see how this is an issue as they are not mentioned in the previous source either, similarly they can be included in another footnote under Syrians.

I have already tried to explain multiple times that random words cannot be added into quotes of sources. This is not a matter of contention and simply a basic rule so I see no point in continuing to debate it. I have exhausted all my resources on the matter, if you still do not understand this please re-read what I have already stated or turn to Wikipedia policy for guidelines. (WP:QUOTE) Red Phoenician (talk) 04:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

As the editor JJNito197 said: "the percentage tally of the Lebanese ethnic group needs a cite otherwise it comes under WP:SYNTH". Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello, you seem to have copy and pasted what JJNito197 said without reading what WP:SYNTH implies. As I am only using one source it would be impossible for WP:SYNTH to apply in this case. If the main issue is the wording this can be changed to something such as "population estimate".

Regardless, you ignored my response and continued to edit on Wikipedia while I waited 4 days for your reply, only responding after I had edited (which I had done since I assumed that you conceded the dispute). It has become clear at this point you are not willing to cooperate with other users and simply wish to be disruptive and push your own agenda on Wikipedia. Red Phoenician (talk) 06:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

In response to your first question, as long as there is a very reliable source and there is a correct percentage, it cannot be replaced in other sources. The percentage is based on your conclusion. Concerning that I am ignoring you, this is not true. You did not mention me so that I would notice that you sent. Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Red Phoenician Again, how could the Armenians and others be excluded? The source does not obey this ratio at all. It is just Wikipedia:SYNTH.

• Armenians in Lebanon. According to Minority Rights Group International, there are 156,000 Armenians in Lebanon (2014), around 4% of the population and to the CIA 4% of the population and 1 other
• Kurds in Lebanon between 75,000 - 100,000 [3]
• Iraqis in Lebanon 50,000
• Syrians in Lebanon 1,196,560 estimated (April 2015) 1,011,366 registered (December 2016) 929,624 registered (July 2019) 1.5 - 2 million (2023 Lebanese estimate) (April 2015) 1,011,366. There is a wide range of numbers associated with them, and their exact percentage can never be definitively confirmed
• The source you brought indicates that the Palestinians in Lebanon are between while UNRWA estimates that there are 250,000 to 280,000 Palestinians living in the country as UN-registered refugees. On what basis did you give them a percentage?.
• other

Sorry @JJNito197 but it took too long. Do you have another word on this matter? Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 23:27, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The only one using Wikipedia:SYNTH is you by combining multiple sources. I have already explained my points here and in the noticeboard so I will not bother with this. Red Phoenician (talk) 07:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Unless the specific groups are cited, wp synth would apply. If 5 percent of said population is X per cite, that doesn't mean 95% is Y. The 95% would need a cite if cite for X doesn't include the statistic. This is the same reason why we can't tally the religious demographics section, we are reaching conclusions ourselves with no source. (Also the fact that there hasn't been an official count since 1932.) A truism I remember always is - Wikipedia doesn't care if something is true, wikipedia cares what can be cited from reliable sources. This is the same reason why changing Evangelical to Protestant was problematic being that per the Lebanese constitution, "Evangelical" is a recognised religious group whereas Protestant isn't recognised individually as such for multiple reasons. For readability purposes, there needs to be some sort of continuity in displaying information. It's similar to why we can't put Judaism down as a percentage even though every other recognised religious group has one, due to the fact it is a miniscule population and counted by persons rather than percentage. I hope this clarifies my position on the matter. JJNito197 (talk) 10:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello, if synth still applies in this case I will concede for now until I can find a better source. Also, could you provide a source for the Lebanese constitution using the term Evangelical to refer to all Protestants so we can close that matter as well. Red Phoenician (talk) 07:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi! If it is more suitable for those adherents today, so be it. Like how Druze do not see themselves as Muslims in modern times even though they are categorised as Muslims within the 5 sects. The fact there is (unrecognized) denominations however within that Protestant grouping begs the question who should be the sole representive of said grouping. This source speaks about there being "unrecognised Protestant sects" in Lebanon so there is no definitive congruity between communities on representation. I don't have an opinion either way but am considering only the knock on effect it could have on this project in the future. JJNito197 (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Canaanites/Phoenicians (yet again)

@Zlogicalape: you've already been blocked once for edit-warring this. Don't try to add it again without first obtaining consensus agreement on this talk page. The WP:ONUS is on you to gain consensus. DeCausa (talk) 08:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

With respect to Wikipedia:FAILEDVERIFICATION , the unsourced statement should be removed and replaced with a sourced one as I have done ! I wasn't able to defend myself the first time which led to the decision of blocking. Regardless, i'll revert back to my edit as it's sourced unlike the previous one. We can discuss this further here of course but the unsourced material must removed. Zlogicalape (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I think this user completely lacks the ability to work with others (WP:COLLAB), and needs to have a long hard read of WP:COMPETENT. This user doesn't understand what WP:SYNTH means also which was the valid reason for removing this users "contribution". JJNito197 (talk) 10:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, but Wikipedia:SYNTH doesn't apply ! Your confusion is possibly because you haven't read the articles (to avoid accusing you for vandalism) The articles are clear, and the fact that you want to keep unsourced material (Wikipedia:FAILEDVERIFICATION) in place of the sourced ones begs the question "Why?" ! Zlogicalape (talk) 11:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

It is sourced. Can't you see the citation? It's to the CIA World Factbook. Your sources just say that the ancient ancestors of the Lebanese were "Canaanites". That's not the same thing. There might be a DNA study that shows that modern Italians are primarily the descendants of Ancient Romans. But that's not a source for saying that the inhabitants of modern Italy are Romans. DeCausa (talk) 12:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

My source states "More than 90 percent of the genetic ancestry of modern Lebanese is derived from ancient Canaanites" ! Plain English ! Your source simply states them being Arab with no reason behind the claims whereas my source is scientifically backed ! The source clearly states that modern Lebanese are Canaanites. How can they be Arab if they have no Arab genetics ? Modern Greeks are Greek since they derive their genes from ... the Ancient Greeks. If my parents are Arab, and my grandparents are Arab, and my great-grandparents are Arab .... then I'm not going to be Greek, I am ... Arab ! Similarly, for a population that is mainly Canaanite ! Zlogicalape (talk) 13:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Apart from the fact you have an erroneous understanding of ethnicity, it's WP:SYNTH. You're drawing a conclusion that's not explicitly in that source. DeCausa (talk) 14:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Erroneous according to who ? You ? Expand

The sources state 'over 90% genetically Canaanite' which makes them genetically Canaanite, so your appeal to WP:SYNTH is irrelevant Zlogicalape (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps read our article on ethnicity to get some insight this is not a question of genetics. The bottom line is that we have a reliable source that says that 95% of Lebanese are Arab and you are relying on other sources on genetics to morph that in to what you want. I think we're done here. DeCausa (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Note that this has been the subject a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard, where Zlogicalpe's argument was unanimously rebuked. It is time to drop the stick. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks and noted. DeCausa (talk) 06:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC)