This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Visual arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of visual arts on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Visual artsWikipedia:WikiProject Visual artsTemplate:WikiProject Visual artsvisual arts articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
This article relates to the British Museum. Please copy assessments of the article from the most major WikiProject template to this one, as needed.British MuseumWikipedia:GLAM/British MuseumTemplate:WikiProject British MuseumBritish Museum-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sculpture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sculpture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SculptureWikipedia:WikiProject SculptureTemplate:WikiProject Sculpturesculpture articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Archaeology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Archaeology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArchaeologyWikipedia:WikiProject ArchaeologyTemplate:WikiProject ArchaeologyArchaeology articles
I have removed the recent statement by Turkey from the lead as it is not sufficiently important and Wikipedia is not news. The statement appears in a summary form under the "Legality of removal from Athens" section, where it is probably worth mentioning as a tangential fact. Please note that Turkey is not a party to the dispute between Greece and the UK, and the article already states that no one has found the original firman in the Turkish archives. Therefore the Turkish statement says nothing new except that Turkey supports the return of the marbles to Greece. There are certified copies of the firmans in Italian and English translation in the archives and the issue among scholars is the interpretation of them. Wikipedia is not the place to record every statement by every country on the issue.
Also please note that Turkey should be given its common name in English WP:Commonname There is no need the call it "The Republic of Turkiye", just as we don't call Germany "The Federal Republic of Germany" every time we refer to it in an article. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just my two cents on the statement by Aemilius Adolphin: There are certified copies of the firmans in Italian and English translation in the archives and the issue among scholars is the interpretation of them.: The Italian translation of the Sultan's firman was not certified and is unsigned, thus making its authenticity questionable among scholars and experts on the matter. Editors are welcome to expand on and add these details about the translation missing any signatures and other means of certification to the article if they deem them to be noteworthy, always with the necessary sources explicitly mentioning that the document was unsigned. I myself was unaware of this detail until after a british scholar brought it up, here. [1]. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖(talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 20:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not aware of any reputable scholars who state that the two firmans are definitely forgeries. There aren't signed because they are Italian translations of the original which was given to the Voivode of Athens, but the copies indicate where the seal and the signature appear (all copies were obviously handwritten in those days). The original was given to the Voivode of Athens by the Sultan's official courrier, Mehemmed Raschid Aga. There are several eyewitnesses, including some hostile to Elgin, who confirm that the Sultan's courrier handed over the firman to the Voivode and stayed in Athens to ensure that the order was obeyed. So are we to believe that Elgin somehow forged all the correspondence between the British embassy and the Porte regarding the negotiations over the firmans and somehow induced the Sultan's courrier to deliver the forgeries, but decided to give the forgeries ambiguous wording which scholars still debate today rather than simply making it a clear order to allow Elgin to do what he wants with the marbles? All this is explained in Lord Elgin’s firman by Dyfri Williams (which is cited in the article.) Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
.jpg){kind=small}
