Talk:Catalan vault

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About the title of this article[edit]

This article should change its title to "Tile vault" as it is the name that best describes this construction technique.

The names that traditionally have had this technique in several languages ​​are limited to describing the thinness, the general appearance or the materials that characterize these type of vaults, without indicating any geographical reference. For example, in Spanish it is called "bóveda tabicada" (partition vault), in French "voûte plate" (flat vault), in Italian "volta a foglio" (sheet vault), in English "tile vault" and even in Catalan "volta de maó de pla" (flat brick vault). It should not be forgotten that, according to the most recent studies, (principally of M. Fortea Luna and P. Araguas) this technique does not arise in Catalonia, but in the Islamic world, and that it is a technique that is traditionally used in many more places besides Catalonia. In fact, tile vault researcher such as John Oschendorf (The Art of Structural Tile) claims that the name "catalan vaults" is recent and politically charged, and Dietrich Neumann (The Guastavino system in context) claims that is preferable to describe this technique as "tile vaults". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.212 (talk) 13:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 March 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The majority of editors who weighed in here don't believe that "tile vault" is the WP:COMMONNAME or otherwise meets the article title criteria better than the current name. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 01:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Catalan vault → Tile vault – Because the current title of this architectural technique is neither neutral nor accurate (does not describe the technique itself) but geographical, and was created with political connotations, so the current title does not follow Wikipedia's naming conventions. 88.22.228.43 (talk) 16:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 11:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment 5 of the 6 foreign-language Wiki pages linked here also use "Catalan"; the exception is Dutch, which uses Tamboerijn. Would be useful to see sources that confirm "Tile vault" as a common name. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
That foreign-languages wiki pages are incomplete because show the tile vaulting techique as a catalan technique and that is a biased info (it would be interesting to see if that pages were created by Catalan wikipedians).
In the page in spanish wikipedia dedicated to this technique(which is a special relevance source because Spain was the country from where tile vaulting was spread to Europe and America), it is evident that the denomination Catalan vault should not be used as a synonym for tile vaulting, because the tile vaulting technique is not an exclusive tradition of Catalonia but a regional variant among others, and obviously a variant can't define the whole technique.
The most recent studies in both English and Spanish show too that Catalan vault it is not the most appropriate way to name to this construction technique (born in Al-Andalus or even in Maghreb), because (unlike expressions like Tile vault or Timbrel vault) it does not describe the composition or how works this type of vaults, but rather refers to a place where there were not invented and from which they are not exclusive. Moreover, the MIT professor John Oshendorf in his book Guastavino Vaulting: The Art of Structural Tile claims that the denomination Catalan vault is <<politically charged>> and was promoted by a Catalan nationalist (Josep_Puig_i_Cadafalch) in 1904.
In this video presentation, Oschendorf explains too from the minute 17:20 how <<catalans are very good in promoting Catalonia>> and how Guastavino (who was the real introducer of Tile vaulting in North America and who was not catalan) <<never called it catalan vaulting>>.
People also could read the study Las bóvedas tabicadas en la arquitectura valenciana where is explained that <<the expression "Catalan vault" is not an adequate expression either. It was held at the Architecture Congress Madrid, in 1904, but it is therefore a recent expression, which does not refer to this technique, nor its material, nor presumably its origins.>>
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.27.224.225 (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see this as overwhelming evidence of a common name; per WP:NPOVNAME and WP:COMMONNAME, the current title is justified. Oppose. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
I think the main problem about this wiki page name is that the previous page editors ignored that to designate the whole tile vaulting technique as Catalan vault is technically wrong, biased, and can create confusion, as it does indeed.
An encyclopedic article (and its title) should be as accurate and neutral as possible. Moreover, John Oschendorf is probably the most important researcher about tile vaulting and Guastavino's architectural legacy in the United States nowadays, so his studies are an essential source about this matter.
Despite the expression Catalan vault (so-named by 20th century Catalans) can be common sometimes, there is no a serious reason why an obviously non neutral, non technical and non unique name has to be the way to designate an encyclopedic page instead another more technical and neutral options. Don't forget that Tile vault, or even Timbrel vault (so-named by Guastavino Sr.), are common names in English too and are the most correct denominations in academic environments.
If we take a look on the Actas del Simposio Internacional sobre Bóvedas Tabicadas (Proceedings of the International Symposium on Tile Vaults) you will see that the way to describe tile vaulting in a recent international specialized congress about this technique was not Catalan vault (or “bóveda catalana” in Spanish) but Tile vaults (“bóvedas tabicadas” in Spanish).
To sum up, in order to avoid confusions wikipedians would have to rename this page or create another page titled Tile vaulting where to include the way traditionally used in Catalonia in a page section as the spanish wikipedia does
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.190 (talk) 13:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term "Catalan vault" is quite common and I don't agree that it's biased of Wikipedia to use the most popular term. Ochsendorf specifically says that the term is popular. The Spanish Wikipedia dedicates a specific page to this style, Bóveda catalana, and another page to the general concept under Bóveda tabicada. English sources don't appear to use "tile vault", some use "thin-tile vault" but not nearly as many as use Catalan vault. – Thjarkur (talk) 21:02, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
Well, you will agree that a wrong habit can be a common habit but a wrong habit always is a bad habit. What should matter about this debate is what current experts say, and the majority affirm that do not exist a "Catalan technique vault" as such, but a tile vault technique renamed unilaterally by political reasons.
So far the only argument to support "Catalan vault" as the title of this article is that it is a common habit but, as has been argued already, it is not the only common way to call the tile vaulting technique nor the most used or traditional way (not even in Catalonia). Neither is a neutral or academical name. So, what is the reason to objectively accept that the controversial expression ”Catalan vault” is better option than "Tile vaulting", another common, traditional and more neutral and academical name? There is a page about tile vaults from the Cambridge University Department of Architecture Is not a good English source?
Let's see some academical quotes:
  • <<The tile vault, as is known, is the one built by placing one or more layers of slats arranged with the flat face tangent to the direction thereof. In historical documentation it is named with a great variety of names: the most of the time, according to its materials ("tile vault", "plaster and tile"), but other times according its construction ("barandat", "rajola de pla", "maó de pla") or even according to its thickness ("double flat tile", "three double", "three tiles"). On the other hand, there are names that are based on more dubious criteria, the result of a historiography anxious to describe its origins or center of radiation to a specific geography; This is the case of "vôute a la Roussillon" and "volta catalana" ("Catalan vault").(…) The name "volta catalana" ("Catalan vault") appears in the mid-nineteenth century. However, it is surprising that the bibliography published in Catalonia on this procedure (which was even interpreted as a hallmark of the Catalan people) is quantitatively very scarce. And, on the other hand, it is still paradoxical, as Ph. Araguas has already underlined, that a territory that has given its name to a type of brick vault is, in reality, a place whose architecture is built primarily in stone.>> Quote from Conejo da Pena, Antoni. Volta de rajola, volta de maó pla, or volta catalana: reflections on tile vaulting in Catalonia during the Gothic centuries
  • <<Despite the brilliant nineteenth-century development of tile vaulting in Catalonia and the historiographic focus on this territory, which would end up calling the tile vault as "volta catalana", the first testimonies of its use in Catalonia are much later than in Murcia, in Valencia and in Aragon. In fact, both Joan Bassegoda and José Luis González have pointed out that there were no partitioned vaults in Catalonia in the 14th century.>> Quote from Zaragoza, Arturo. Hacia una Historia de las Bóvedas Tabicadas (Towards a History of the Tile Vaults).
  • <<Although Guastavino called his system cohesive construction or timbrel vault, outside the US this technique is often called "voûte a rousillon" or "Catalan vault" in reference to these two regions of southern France and northern Spain. However, there are abundant examples of its use in other geographical areas, so the term tile vaults is perhaps more appropriate.>> Quote form Neumann, Dietrich. The Guastavino system in context: History and dissemination of a revolutionary vaulting method
  • <<the expression "Catalan vault" is not an adequate expression either. It was held at the Architecture Congress Madrid, in 1904, but it is therefore a recent expression, which does not refer to this technique, nor its material, nor presumably its origins. And finally we would like to make a reference to the translation proposal in English that has also been used to give the title to this congress. The expression “tile vaulting” has been chosen by some authors in recent texts because it is an expression that translates a brick of little thickness in English. It replaces "timbrel vault" which was a term invented by Rafael Guastavino in an essay published in 1893, "Essay on the Theory and History of Cohesive Construction, Specially Applied to the Timbrel Vault", perhaps because of the difficulties of finding an adequate expression in English and because of its similarity to the bricks placed "a panderete".>> Quote from Gómez-Ferrer, Mercedes. Las bóvedas tabicadas en la arquitectura valenciana
  • <<In Catalonia, tile vaulting have been in frequent use since fifteenth century. Within a few centuries, it could be found in other regions of Spain, as well as certain areas of Italy, France, Portugal, and Algeria. In each area the vaulting method was given a name in the local language: "volta in folio" in Italian, "voûte a la Roussillon" or "voûte plate" in French, Bóveda tabicada in Spanish, "voltes de barandat" in Valencian, "maó de pla" in Catalan, "abóbada de tijolo" in Portuguese, and "rhorfas" in Arabic. Tile vaulting was in essence a Mediterranean tradition, with its earliest known origins in Valencia. (…) Puig i Cadafalch's famous lecture titled "catalan architecture" helped to create a national Catalan identity through architecture and promoted the use of "Catalan vaulting" for the first time. Though many others have used the term since, Guastavino never referred to his own technique as "Catalan vaulting", since this politically charged term was invented in 1904, more than twenty years after he had inmigrated to the United States.>> Quote from Ochsendorf, John. Guastavino Vaulting : The Art of Structural Tile. ISBN 978-1568987415.
You can also read the Guastavino's book about tile/timbrel vaulting, Essay on the Theory and History of Cohesive Construction Applied Especially to the Timbrel Vault (remember that Rafael Guastavino was the introducer of tile vaulting technique in USA so he knew perfectly what he was writing about).
More quotes could be added in the same opinion but it would take too long space.
Are you sure that wikipedia is right but these experts are wrong?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.57 (talk) 16:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on grounds offered. Titles don't have to be "accurate" and routinely are not accurate; we take the actual name used. It'd be like proposing atom be moved because it can be subdivided into sub-atomic particles but the Greek meaning of atom implies it can't be divided. See Spanish flu for an example. If you want to argue the article should be moved, let's see a WP:COMMONNAME argument that "Tile vault" is the predominant form in English. SnowFire (talk) 19:49, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
It has been argued many arguments that discredit the expression "Catalan vault":
  • It's not the only name in English (neither in Spanish, French, Portuguese nor Catalan).
  • It's a recent name (it's a non traditional name). In fact, Guastavino, the introducer of tile vauilting into the Anglosphere never used the expression Catalan vault".
  • It's clearly a non technical name (it don't describes how the vaults are built or how work, unlike architectural names must do).
  • I'ts clearly a non neutral name (invented by some Catalan chauvinists).
Scholar quotes also confirm these arguments.
However, so far no one has proved that "catalan vault is preferable nor most common than" Tile vault ". So, the question here really should be this: Can anybody demonstrate that "Catalan vault" is the preferable form in English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.142 (talk) 12:08, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're the one proposing the requested move. You're the one who has to show that the current title isn't the common usage. None of your four points are relevant on Wikipedia. We don't care what other languages use, we don't care how recent it is, we don't prefer technical names even if what you claim is true, and both English & Wikipedia use nationality / locality adjectives all the time even when not strictly 100% accurate. SnowFire (talk) 14:47, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
Ok. If listed arguments are not enough despite cons clearly win to pros. If the opinion of some of the best international experts (Oschendorf from US, Neumann from Germany, Araguas from France, Zaragoza, Gómez-Ferrer, Conejo da Pena and Bassegoda from Spain) about tile vaulting is not enough neither. If the reference of the prestigious Cambridge University is nothing... Could anybody explain how it should be proven that it is not the most common nor right name? Listing more links? Quoting more experts? That has already been done but you say that it does not matter. It has no sense. Nobody has justified the title of this page and nobody asked to justify it.
Is that normal? Why? I would appreciate an explanation.
By the way... Anybody has wondered why the English wikipedia has not an equivalent page to Bóveda tabicada but this non equivalent page instead? Anybody has wondered why this page is of special interest to Wikipedia:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries, a clearly politicized (by Catalan nationalism) wikipedians group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.177 (talk) 16:52, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're finally asking the right questions. Wikipedia does not just go by what the "experts" say. It goes by the "common" name in sources, which can be shown in things like news articles, Google Books hits, and sometimes via background in Google Scholar. But you're not using Google Scholar quite right here; we'd use it for evidence about what the actual name used is, not what the academic thinks the name should be. Some of your quotes above actually work against your case on Wikipedia. I don't seem to have access to the original article, but you cite an article saying that:
Although Guastavino called his system cohesive construction or timbrel vault, outside the US this technique is often called "voûte a rousillon" or "Catalan vault" in reference to these two regions of southern France and northern Spain. However, there are abundant examples of its use in other geographical areas, so the term tile vaults is perhaps more appropriate."
See, this is actually an argument for Catalan vault. Wikipedia is interested in the term that is actually used, and this cited article says it's 'often called "voûte a rousillon" or "Catalan vault"'. The bit about it not being an entirely "appropriate" name is interesting, and potentially material for the content of the article, but is irrelevant for the title of the article. William the Silent is not really an accurate translation of the Dutch ("taciturn" is more correct) but it's the name used in English, so the Silent it is. You can cite as many articles you like that say Silent is not a great translation, and they don't matter, because the important part is that Silent is a frequent term.
Here, I'll show you what it'd look like: "tile vault" Gustavino , "Catalan vault" Gustavino , "tile vault" Gaudi , "Catalan Vault" Gaudi . Take a look at how the term is used - or, frankly, neither one seems to be used all that often. However, "Catalan Vault" seems to be more of a proper term when it does show up, while "tile vault" is generally used casually and as a descriptor not as a term for the whole work. I could still be convinced otherwise, but this is the kind of Google Book search that shows common use that you'd be looking for, if you could find some way of showing a predominant usage of "tile vault". SnowFire (talk) 18:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
Thanks for the explanation. I have to clarify that if I have not linked Neumann's quote to the original article in English, it is because I have not found it available on the internet. On the other hand, I have found its translation for a Spanish book, which can be seen here (at the beginning of the second page).
I think that it would be very useful to establish what “commonly used” means, or how many references (and what kind of references) are necessary to determine objectively if something is really prevalent, because it is a fact that the majority of people don't know concepts as this, but only what is a vault as much, if they are not architects, engineers or art historians. For instance, it is significant that even the famous Encyclopedia Britannica does not have such a specialized article as this wiki page.
Coherence between different versions of wikipedia concepts should matter too, in the same way that it exist between paper encyclopedias in every single languages, despite the translations. It shouldn't make sense for an encyclopedia to have a page for The Mandalorian instead of a page for Star Wars, or a page for Terminator 2 that didn't redirect to another for The Terminator. However, this article is supposedly the equivalent for this concept, and that is a mess because its authentic equivalent article is this , which is obviously an "spin-off" or appendix of the first link. It has no sense neither, that among the few references listed on this article, appear two references by López, David, and another one by Block, Philippe; who at least have also published (with Van Mele, T.) an article entitled Tile vaulting in the 21st century.
Lastly, Neumann's quote does not defend the use of "Catalan vault" so it should not be taken as a reason in favor of its use. He just says that voûte a roussillon is as usual (and not recommended) as "Catalan vault", and it does not mean that this page should be titled "voûte a roussillon". In fact does not exist an objective way to afirm that "Catalan vault" is more used or practical than any other common names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.228.155 (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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