Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 June

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2024 June[edit]

X (social network)[edit]

X (social network) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

The page was moved prematurely when there was no consensus from the discussion; there were 29 comments supporting the move and 20 opposing it. In the mover's talk page discussion, they said quote "In my opinion, WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense.", and also "From my observation, more people supported the move. Considering this, and acknowledging the series of previous failed attempts with Twitter, I found it acceptable". These two statements, in my view, show a lack of understanding of how move discussions are supposed to work (they made a choice that aligned with their own common sense rather than consensus, and they counted comments as votes). When asked for clarification, the closer stated "If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you", which shows an unwillingness to discuss their decision to move the page. In short, this page was moved way before consensus had been reached based on the personal "common sense" that a non-admin found "acceptable". Di (they-them) (talk) 04:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment My decision is based on an independent, impartial analysis of the discussion, and that analysis supported the page move. I am not an attorney to give bulletproof answers; I respond with my reasoning, but I didn't know that whatever is told in good faith will be used against me. The rest is up to the review board to decide.Anoop Bhatia (talk) 05:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) The closer was correct, and most of the opposition to the move was WP:VAGUEWAVES and/or lacking any clear policy explanation as why not to follow WP:COMMONNAME. Thus those votes were justifiably reduced in weight to form rough consensus. The passionate opinions about this article are exemplified by Di (they-them) (talk · contribs) first reverting the move before even reading that there had been a move discussion, then coming here seeking an overturn of the move after the move revert was restored. Next, indeed the position of The Education Auditor (talk · contribs) is also potentially correct. We have two issues to deal with here, one is the different corporate strategy post acquisition (generally the controversy relating to X's elimination of the content censorship team) as well as a change in name. The main issue we have on the article that is now resolved is the BLP issue of having the owner's name in the title, which attributes every bit of trivia to the company owner. WP:BLPRESTORE applies to adding Musk's name back to the article title. I am not opposed to other suggested names, but for now, the close and move was correct and we can examine improvements from here. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jtbobwaysf: Please WP:AGF. I do not have “passionate opinions” about this subject, I redirected the page because I thought that a mistake had been made. I saw that we had two page about the same website and, naturally, assumed that someone had duplicated the original page. It has nothing to do with my opinions on the page, the website, or anything else, and you insinuating that I’m making passionate or opinionated edits is quite insulting. Di (they-them) (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please check article talk pages for relevant discussions before do reverts like this Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). Two main arguments were used by a majority of those opposing the move. This included the fact that there may be continuity issues from having two articles about one company and the software itself being the same. I believe that the first issue can be easily resolved by moving Twitter to Twitter (2006-2023) similar to the aforementioned Viacom articles. The second argument is somewhat narrow as the company is more than just the software. It would be ideal to take opposing arguments into account and not treat Twitter as a separate entity. I have written this essay on why this is the most ideal compromise. 𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓔𝓭𝓾𝓬𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓐𝓾𝓭𝓲𝓽𝓸𝓻 10:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). The close was reasonable. A lot of the oppose comments take issue with the existence of the article without really getting into why the proposed name wouldn't work. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist (involved). It's worth noting this discussion was not about the common name of Twitter/X—the last RM on that closed weeks ago—it's about turning what was essentially a size split on recent Twitter/X history into an article that treats Twitter and X as logically distinct. I'm concerned by the closer refusing to clarify how they arrived at their conclusion. The discussion on their talk page indicates that they personally strongly believe X and Twitter to be independent entities, but they have been unwilling to indicate what evidence or comments in the original discussion brought them to that conclusion. I personally believe a policy-based close here would take heed of the fact that no one has provided sources indicating any evidence that there's a common logical distinction between X and Twitter besides the latter just being the new name under new ownership of the former; indeed, there is a plethora of sources indicating the two terms continue to be used interchangeably to refer to the same product both pre- and post-acquisition (e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]). I tried to request specific clarity on how the discussion was interpreted by the closer ([7]), and received a dismissive reply that implied the result was somehow obvious and the closer had no interest in explaining it to the ~20 editors who don't see it as obvious ([8]). I'm concerned enough that the closer is using supervote rationales instead of referring to any other commenter's arguments to call this a bad close and request relisting. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 15:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). It seems to me the support !votes were more numerous and had generally better arguments, including a BLP issue, and that there is no technical reason to not have two articles on the same organisation (though doing so is editorial, so I did not discount these when reviewing the close - but it is not a reason not to.) SportingFlyer T·C 16:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved). Wait, what? WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense. This being the WP:Commonname that is the core of WP:AT? The solution is not perfect. The correct approach would be to rename Twitter to X. However, that isn't happening, and keeping the name as Twitter is meaningless since the product is now called X, what? If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you.? This is not an acceptable close, the explanation given is contrary to the relevant policy and is not compelling why it should be ignored. The discussion should be reopened and the closers opinion should be left as a !vote. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved), per Alpha3031 - additionally, based on the comments quoted by Alpha3031, the closer appears to have strong opinions regarding what these articles should be titled, and probably shouldn’t have closed this discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 05:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (no consensus). (Uninvolved). The discussion did not reach consensus, and it was closed with a WP:Supervote. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). Reasonable close after carefully considered both support and oppose arguments, even if the closing statement was poorly written. Under a microscope, the oppose arguments were generally quite weak, and lacked policy or guidelines to back up the votes, whereas support relied predominantly upon common name arguments. For example referencing a false previous consensus that the article X (social media) shouldn't exist, concerns over confusion to readers, that Twitter/X are the same thing (although there has been more than one article about Twitter for a long time already), or otherwise that Twitter should have been moved to X (social media) - which is another moot point given there was no consensus to do so in previous RM. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. < uninvolved > Above arguments for reopening and letting discussion continue are compelling. I don't think there was a firm consensus, and perhaps there was enough participation to warrant a close of "no consensus", but it wouldn't hurt to let editors continue what appears to be a talk that was still in progress – as yet unfinished. I think the RM should be given more time. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 11:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Engineer's Building airstrike[edit]

Engineer's Building airstrike (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

This is a straightforward supervote, with the closer deciding several things. The first being that "massacre" is non-neutral, and that the other pages within the same category of pages with the title "massacre" are not relevant. The close explicitly endorses maintaining systemic bias by refusing to engage with the fact that events that are titled "massacre" related to the ongong war in Gaza are not relevant to whether or not this event should so titled. A substantial majority of editors disagreed with the proposal and further disagreed with the claim that "massacre" is POV or that the other articles in the same category of pages are not relevant. That was ignored by a straightforward supervote. If the closer felt that their view was that this should be moved they should have voted instead of imposing their view over the consensus of editors opposed to the move. nableezy - 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse (involved). WP:NCENPOV is clear that "massacre" is a POV term that should only be used if it is part of the common name or part of the generally accepted descriptor. Those supporting didn’t even attempt to argue that either was the case, just that this was the "right" descriptor based on their personal opinions. As such, the closer acted appropriately, assessing consensus not by counting votes but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. BilledMammal (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). I would primarily reference the closing statement itself, which was well put and echoes the comment above by BilledMammal. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). The vote tally was roughly equal, but this was a fairly straightforward discussion in terms of what the rule is regarding WP:COMMONNAME, and none of the oppose !votes could make the argument that their preferred article name was part of the WP:COMMONNAME and in one instance actually agreed with those supporting the move that the old title was not the WP:COMMONNAME. Good close, well within policy, clearly not a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 18:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) per BilledMammal and WP:COMMONNAME. The oppose votes were entirely POV opinions as to what the incident should be called rather than what it is called in reliable sources. These were rightly given much less weight than those votes which cited Wikipedia naming conventions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved) The opposing !votes didnt cite any policy for the most part and some made arguments such as "30 times more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed in this conflict" that are not relevant and the vote should be excluded from counting. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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