Talk:Serial Experiments Lain/Archive 2

Rein, Lein and Lain

Someone at the FA Review asked about these. So here's my attempt to clarify them a bit.

Lain (Real World Lain) is considered the 'real' Lain. It is ofter her personality that shows while she is in the real world, and consists of her timidity and shyness.

Lein (Wired Lain) is a split personality which develops while Lain is inside the Wired, and begins to appear outside it in some of the later episodes, most notibly when she loses her temper at the Men in Black (Karl and Lin). Lein is far more outgoing then her counterpart, and can be considered an evil twin of Lain. It's Lein that Alice sees at Cyberia and Lein who spreads the rumor of Alice liking a teacher, indicating a sadisticly playful side.

Rein (Digital Lain) is more of a conscience then an actual personality. This is what Lain temporarily becomes after connecting herself with the wired. I dont really know as much about this one, but as she often acts sleepy and as I put it, 'drugged', I think half her conscience is loaded on the Wired, and half is still in her body. Anyone who can improve that is welcome to. YokoSuzukiFan1992 10:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

There's one basic thing I don't understand about this.

Let's suppose the Iwakura family really existed in present-day Japan. Now wouldn't their daughter's name be officially romanized as Rein, while she could very well use Lain and Lein as nicknames or aliases (online or wherever romanizations were needed)? Why did the makers of the series pick up Lain instead of Rein in the first place? Is the romanization regular according to some system I'm not familiar with, or did they just find an unconventional variant intuitively suitable for commercial English context? I'm interested in all possible explanations. – Jippe 18:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

To start off with, in the series, there are three Lain personalities. They have their names spelled using the three different alphabets - kanji, katakana, and roomaji. (Because otherwise, the poor voice actor got heaps confused.) kanji-lain is the 'real-world' Lain - she is timid. katakana-lain is the 'Wired' Lain - she is bold and challenges kanji-lain often. roomaji-lain is a malicious so-and-so, who often makes life hard for kanji-lain. The "Lain, Lein and Rein" fan-romanisations are a bit arbitary and confusing. Hope that helps. - Malkinann 05:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The way I understand the question, Jippe asks about the official title translation. The thing with this title is that it was distributed as "Serial Experiments Lain" (in English) in Japan. This was to give a sense of modernity/alienness, as explained in the end of the reception section. Thus the "weird romanisation". Actually, I don't think Lain/Rein/Whatever is a real Japanese name (is it?), so looking for the correct romanisation may not have much point. Hope this helps too :).--SidiLemine 13:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. It is today that I watched the last layer for the first time. (That's why I was very curious about the cultural context before but read only parts of the information available.) I cannot really say I found any strong evidence for the Three Lains Theory in the series. Two could be enough, since neither final truth nor unquestionable borders between personalities exist in SEL. Anyway, thanks a lot to both of you for your answers. SidiLemine, if Lain/Rein/Whatever has a kanji, logically, it should be a real Japanese word. I do not know Japanese so I cannot take this further. The correct romanization does have some minor significance if we are interested in the structure and inner logic of the fictional ”real world” in which Lain and Alice live. Perhaps it is a question that belongs to an SEL fansite rather than Wikipedia. :) – Jippe 06:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Serial Experiments Lain episodes

I have removed the duplicate information from the article. Not everyone has a fast internet. I for instance share a 1024k link with some 60 people... In my view a featured list should be easy to load on any computer. I am using Planetes as a model.

Furthermore, I feel this article does not need all the information on one page. SEL anime is notable enough to have multiple pages on it.

I am also going to nominate that list in question for Featured List status as I did for: List of Oh My Goddess episodes, List of Planetes episodes, List of Fullmetal Alchemist episodes. All of those are featured lists. I think Lain list is of similar quality and can easily be a featured list.

Lain herself would have preferred multiple featured articles. :P

--Cat out 23:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty happy with that; I'll return the small list I had put in the article. Actually I am in the third world and was beginning to find it hard to load the page myself. It's just that the guidelines say that single-season series should have the episode list merged, and that was demended at the FAC. --SidiLemine 11:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe such a thing is a FAC criteria. --Cat out 22:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for having the big list in its own article, given the weight, images, etc., but does that prevent from having a small one in? It seems weird to have an article without it, given it's only 13 episodes. I thought this went into the "summary style", but I might be mistaken. Suggestion anyone?--SidiLemine 14:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I certainly do not mind that. Just do a # number list for example. Its short enough (sadly)... --Cat out 22:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I am against having episode lists in the articles themselves (exceptions for short OVA series). Especially when the episode list has its own page. To a person reading this article without prior knowledge of the show, an episode list is very trivial. And when the episode list has its own page it just makes it redundant. I also perfer the episode list link to be in the "See also" section instead of stuck in the middle of the article in a nearly empty section (it just makes the TOC that much longer). I always scroll to the see also section or template box when looking to episode lists, and it's a hassle to have to search for them elsewhere.--SeizureDog 22:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

My reason for wanting some episode list on the main article is that someone working on the anime might remember the series of events, but not in what episode this or that happened. Or they remember the name of the episode, but not its number, or the opposite. But then, they probably have the time to click on the link. I guess you wouldn't settle for having the small list just above the "see also" section, would you? It's just that I'm looking for comprehensiveness regarding the FAC, and having it only on a separate page makes me itch. But then again, I think you're a far more experienced editor in theis domain, so I'll go with what you say.--SidiLemine 09:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If information is available on the linked article, thats good enough for FAC. Basically the problem is that this article is too comprehensive to fit a single page. Which is not a bad thing actually. --Cat out 10:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm now asked to add more academic work, which implies to have a whole section added... So prepare for even more comprehensiveness. I take the occasion to post two requests to whoever may read:

_ I need access to an article in a back issue of Sci Fi Magazine. Anyone knows where to get that?

_ I need an experienced editor to go and copyedit the whole article. Anyone know who could? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by $yD! (talk • contribs) 11:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

$yD!, if you could provide me issue number, page numbers, and title, I could probably interlibrary loan it for you - my library does magazines/periodicals in addition to books. --Gwern (contribs) 18:47 5 December 2006 (GMT)

That would be amazing. It's issue 88 of Science Fiction Studies, that is, part 3 of volume 29. It's from November 2002. I don't have the page number, but the article name is When the Machines Stop: Fantasy, Reality, and Terminal Identity in Neon Genesis Evangelion and Serial Experiments Lain, by Susan J. Napier. Thanks for the effort.--SidiLemine 11:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I've replied on $yD's talk page. --Gwern (contribs) 03:18 7 December 2006 (GMT)

PSX game

There are basically three options for the PSX game right now:

• 1. - It gets trimmed, infobox removed, and included in the "Other Media" section.
  2. - It stays as is, without its infobox.
  3. - It gets moved to its own article, with link in the "see also" section.

What should happen now? I'm personally for inclusion in the other media, because I think it'll be a long time before someone updates its article if it stands alone. --SidiLemine 11:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd be for moving it out - it'll give both the articles for the SEL anime and the game some 'space to grow'. I'm not sure how much it would grow, given how incredibly niche it is, and poor gameplay to boot, but at least moving it out would give it a chance to grow. --Malkinann 12:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree as well. It's big enough to stand on its own now. --Gwern (contribs) 16:54 6 December 2006 (GMT)

Off it goes then.--SidiLemine 17:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Surprise at reception

"The series received an enthusiastic welcome in the USA, very much to the creative staff's surprise."

Where is this surprise sourced? I came in from the FAC and tried to source it, but a cursory glance around failed to reveal the source for this surprise. --GunnarRene 03:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this may be slightly but forgivably OR. The interviews obviously (to me) state that the creative staff expected Americans to dislike it - it was intended to provoke them, to inspire some sort of culture war almost. Reading them, they seem almost disappointed that that didn't happen and that American fans were so Japanese; "But when I was in L.A., the fans I met seemed so very Japanese in their perception... and that kind of isn't what I wanted, because like I said earlier, I wanted there to be a clash between cultures. I wanted American fans to see Lain and think, "No! That's screwed up! That's so wrong!""[1] (or "this work itself is sort of a cultural war against American culture and the American sense of values we adopted after ww2."[2]) --Gwern (contribs) 07:18 9 December 2006 (GMT)

Article structure

The Other Media list was moved to List of Serial Experiments Lain media, mainly because it was ugly. Should it be brought back, in a less listy fashion? How about the game? Should it be included in the list article? Something else: Should the characters and plot be merged in a single section, as was done with Excel Saga? This would probably mean a separate "list of characters" article, with more people that the ones present now, and only Masami and Lain (possibly her father) described extensively here.--SidiLemine 12:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationales

All of the images that I have checked lack fair use rationales. They do have licensing info, but they lack the detailed, necessary rationales. In the licensing box it states, "To the uploader: please add a detailed fair use rationale for each use, as described on Wikipedia:Image description page, as well as the source of the work and copyright information." Please see Wikipedia:Fair use for more information. Check out these examples of fair use for screenshots: here, here, and here.--Supernumerary 23:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for that. I've actionned all pictures to mirror the examples you cited. Is there still something to do? --SidiLemine 11:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, but anyway you are done. Nice work!--Supernumerary 19:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

FAC (again!)

This article is up at FAC again. Please voice your opinions there. --SidiLemine 11:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

FA

Good work guys, I was glad to help you out during the first FAC. There are still a few light suggestions on the FAC page that you might want to take into consideration, even though it's passed the threshold. — Deckiller 16:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

YAAAAY! Thanks a huge lot to everyone who helped. That's basically everyone in this talk page, plus all the ones who made the effort of coming to copyedit during the GAC and FAC even thought thay didn't care about the anime at all. Now I can go back to a normal, diversified, random wikilife, and a much more productive real one.--SidiLemine 09:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Small note about last edit

Just noticed that last edit User:GunnarRene cleaned out a link, summary reading as below: (Sorry. 1: Wrong place to add such things. 2: Those lyrics are still copyrighted, and we can not link to violators.);

The removed content was: Duvet (Title Song) Performed by Boa [3]

While it's true it's the wrong placement, I'll just note the website linked is the official one of the band. Not every site with lyrics is a violator, in particular official ones aren't. About whether it should be in the article... clearly not right there, but I see most articles on similar subjects have information on opening/ending songs. Maybe needs to be added in a similar format. CP/M ^comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 01:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This link has been moved to the "external links" section of List of Serial Experiments Lain media.--SidiLemine 12:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I was a bit hasty in calling copyright violation here; didn't notice it was the band's site. Actually, if you want to put it back in Serial Experiments Lain, I'll have no problem with it. (Just use the external links section instead of references and notes.) :-) --GunnarRene 03:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Created by

The story was primarily created by Chiaki Konaka[4]. Yoshitoshi ABe was the original character designer. I think "created by Yoshitoshi ABe" is wrong. --Fukumoto 15:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

According to ANN [5], Yoshitoshi ABe was not the Original Character Designer.

Original creator: Yoshitoshi ABe

Original Character Design: Takahiro Kishida

Direct copy and paste. Honestly, I think we should stick to a reputable source like ANN. They don't get things wrong very often. Nique talk 16:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I know, I do not know much about ANN but it seems to me that it says you can contribute information if you login or register. So how do they evade misinformation and user vandalism? I do not think Wikipedia allows sources from other user contributed encyclopedias, so you will need to find another source thanks. Alus 17:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

For your information, the staff credit list in scenario experiments lain (ISBN 4-7897-1320-2) at hand is:

原案・企画
production 2nd

シリーズ構成・脚本
小中 千昭

オリジナル・キャラクターデザイン
安倍 𠮷俊

キャラクターデザイン
岸田 隆宏

(and so on). "production 2nd" is an alias of Yasuyuki Ueda [6]. According to an interview at http://www.iacnet.ne.jp/~shift/022/lain/logj.shtml , which was done when the TV series production was going on, the original idea of the plot was brought up by Ueda, and fleshed out by Ueda, Konaka, and Nakahara. --Fukumoto 19:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the source, the appropriate credits should be added to the article then. Alus 20:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

NICE!

Excellent job, everyone! This is a featured article? How? Colonel Marksman 17:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean "how"?--SeizureDog 20:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Lain has her deserved quality and fame on the Wired. Pomte 20:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

How! --129.241.126.121 01:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Cries for joy*. That's incredible! Has it/when will it be on the front page? I just can't believe such an underground anime made featured article! Colonel Marksman 00:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not been on the front page and there's nothing saying that it will appear on the front page. And btw, it's the 36th most viewed anime on ANN. It's hardly underground for an anime. Underground is more like Onkyo Seimeitai Noiseman or Prayers (both quite interesting pieces). --SeizureDog 03:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well.... Can Noiseman Sound Insect Really be considered underground after its director worked on the Animatrix. Maybe Eternal Family? But anyway, the main thing that prevented me from queuing to the main page is the lack of a decent picture. Any ideas?--SidiLemine 11:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Little known works by well known directors are still underground in my opinion. THX 1138 isn't mainstream for example. --SeizureDog 04:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the current picture of the DVD box is decent. Looks darker and more "industrial" than a popular conception of anime. Pomte 04:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

All right, let's just not get our heads too big. I discovered what usually kills featured articles is too much confidence, and often, the article gets to be huge, extremely refined and detailed. This means that there's not enough references, loss of NPOV, and that's where the Wikiwars start. The key to remember is that these are articles, not a dumping ground for information. Colonel Marksman 16:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

format problem in character section

I've got the following problem with the char section: the three that have their pics on the left (Eiri, Alice and Taro) cannot all have a "colspan="2"" at the same time, or the whole tab starts bugging. Does anyone know what causes that, and how to fix it? Cheers, --82.151.88.195 15:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Doujin vs. Manga

I am, admittedly not an expert so I may be wrong, but don't doujin refer to amateur works. Since "The Nightmare of Fabrication" was created by Yoshitoshi ABe wouldn’t be professional and thus just a manga. Also List of Serial Experiments Lain media lists it as a manga. Scaper8 20:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I always thought the crucial distinction was one of canonicity. For example, I have never seen the various Tenchi Muyo! doujinshi of Masaki Kajishima referred to as anything but doujinshi when they were non-canonical (except in the general sense that they are obviously also in the manga medium). So I suspect professional or not status is not the real issue - professional works are more likely to be canonical and amateur less likely, but it's not any sort of hard and fast relationship. --Gwern (contribs) 02:19 26 April 2007 (GMT)

That does makes scene. I will however, change the line from

A doujin named "The Nightmare of Fabrication"…

to

A doujin manga named "The Nightmare of Fabrication"…

to clearly show it as a manga. Scaper8 19:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd thought the difference between a doujinshi manga and a 'proper' manga was self-publishing/non-self-publishing. -Malkinann 01:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, exceptions can probably be found; I vaguely remember an "Angel Kiss" doujinshi by one of the Evangelion designers which was not self-published; see also the example of Kajishima above. --Gwern (contribs) 06:01 29 April 2007 (GMT)

Reference to IPv6 Communication Protocol

In the 06:01, 29 April 2007 version of the article it is written :

Eiri Masami is introduced as the project director on Protocol 7 (a successor to IPv6) for major computer company Tachibana Labs.

I have watched the anime a few times and I don't remember any mention of the IPv6 protocol. Can anyone point out the episode and aproximate time when that reference is made? --Prozzaks 03:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In annotations of Scenario experiments lain (p.136, p.187), Chiaki J. Konaka writes that the 7th Protocol is not related to TCP/IP. So the article text is wrong. --Fukumoto 16:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I ammended it. Thanks for the reference Fukumoto. Sidi Lemine--82.151.88.1 17:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Easter Egg(s)?

There is at least one Easter Egg I found upon watching Lain. In one of the layers a websites name blinks somewhere for a brief moment. Upon entering this website into our internet I found a webpage with a coming soon message. This was over a year ago. I have forgotten where it was in the series and do not know if this page has been updated. Perhaps someone could keep an eye out for any hidden things in the series? BlackVegetable 00:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• I do not think so. That would be an aweful list that would have almost no contribution to the article. If you mention an Easter Egg, then you're going to mention bits of everything else, then that could eventually break out into a controversial topic, and worse things could follow. I'm very proud that this is a featured article, and I'd like for it to stay that way. Colonel Marksman 18:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• • It is indeed a slippery slope. But I think I remember some reference to the "official" easter eggs somewhere. They probably got deleted during the FAC process thought. --SidiLemine 13:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• • • I understand. I thought, at the time, that due to the odd nature of Lain that such easter eggs might have relevence to the plot in some small way. However, I now figure that if such was the case it would have already been added. BlackVegetable 22:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)