Talk:Homosexuality in China/Archive 1

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Make sense now? But some scholars complain that the government's attitude towards homosexuality and nonfeasance about promoting the situation of homoseuxality still makes the life of gay people in China frustrating.? --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 01:39, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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Dynastic attitude

the following discuss is moved from the article page:

Actually, I'm not sure about that - I've read some things suggesting that gays were rather tolerated in Europe until maybe the 14th century. Anyone know?

Homosexuality went underground after the formation of the People's Republic of China. The communist regime persecuted homosexuals, especially during the Cultural Revolution, when many gays were subject to public humiliation, assault, long prison terms, or execution. Societal tolerance towards homosexuality decreased. -- Is the previous sentence necessary? Seems redundant.

Although there is no explicit law against homosexuality or sodomy between consenting adult men -- how about women? 12.233.149.168

move end

Acutally, according to the info in my hand, Chinese people were quite tolerant towards homosexuality in the past, walking hand in hand was accepatble, and there were sometime lot of bordello offering homosexual sex service to noble. I am not sure about what was that like in Europe, but i know that's quite acceptable in ancient greece.

i don't know which sentence do u mean, but i just want to emphasis that not until the PRC was founded, esp the Cultural Revolution, did the Chinese people become quite intolerant towards homosexuality(because everyone was trained to be leftist?).

about the last one, i'm gonna make some changes, sorry i just used quite sexism word, it means both men and women. --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 02:13, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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Taipei parade

There were 1,000 people took part in the pride parade? I read a news said it was about 500. :O --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 06:45, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Maybe 500 wore masks, another 500 showed their faces. *Joking* --Menchi 11:20, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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Phrasing

Does "Granted a lot of favor" mean "Received much attention"? I changed it to the later, but I am not sure. --Menchi 11:20, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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Danger: Gweilo at work

I've done various non-controversial things with obvious grammatical errors.

The reference to 'Mandarin-speaking regions' seemed unnecessary and an illogical contrast to 'Cantonese'. If we were discussing climate or crop plants then 'regions', but a linguistic usage is just in Mandarin.

Made a proper link for film classifications and Reform and Opening Up.

"nonfeasance about promoting the situation of homosexuality" completely defealted me. If you could post your meaning in Chinese I could perhaps help.

I'm a little troubled by some of the vocabulary, which whilst perhaps technically correct implies that certain acts are unlawful, or has unpleasant legal connections. I have therefore taken out the link to buggery, which autodirects to Anal sex. I am still troubled by the one to Sodomy. I would really like to replace both with the more NPOV 'same-sex acts'. My feeling is to hell with any links here. --William Avery 14 Dec 2003

Thanks for your improvement, about that sentence "nonfeasance about promoting the situation of homosexuality", I try to put it out in Chinese (if my input works). I tried to mean that the Chinese government is quite indifferent to this issue, so they do nothing about that, be they the improvement of the situation of homosexuals in China or giving certain anti-discrimination law or something like that. Does that make sense? About the Cantonese and Mandarin, I didn't mean to invoke a language argument, I just want to point out that the expression of 'gay' is very different in Cantonese and Mandarin. In fact, the tongxinglian is not a common use in Cantonese (unless it's in a formal situation). --yacht (Talk) 05:13, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, I think we'd better change the "homosexuality" in this sentence " The Legislative Council agreed to decriminalize homosexuality" back to buggery, homosexuality!=buggery, don't you agree? :) --yacht (Talk) 05:26, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

OK. At least I'll be able to say that I put the buggery back into Homosexuality in China.

And, does my explanation ("nonfeasance about promoting the situation of homosexuality") make any sense to you? Would you please paraphrase it? I think that sentence really sucks. ^_^ --yacht (Talk) 01:19, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)

How about just plain "failure to promote an understanding of homosexuality". Is that what you mean? Btw, another wording question for you above at #Phrasing (from last month). --Menchi (Talk)â 01:25, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

They are all okay. My sentences are just too Chinglish. (I don't even remember I wrote "Granted a lot of favor"...:O ) I am not sure about the "failure", but I think that the Chinese government hasn't tried to promote that. Does "failure to" mean "tried, but fail", or just "has never tried"? I tried to mean the latter. --yacht (Talk) 04:22, Jan 5, 2004 (UTC)

Mao

This article made me think of Li Zhi-Sui's book "The Private Life of Chairman Mao" in which he mentions that Mao had asked a young soldier to massage his groin. Li specifically refers to Mao's knowledge of history and the ways of ancient emperors in this context. William Avery 21:23, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

dont know that. Never heard of that before. Personally, I am not very interested in Mao's private story. ;) --yacht (Talk) 01:13, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)

I actually have that book in Chinese (《毛澤東私人醫生：回憶錄》，李志綏著). It is a gift, and I didn't read a page of it. But the gifter told me that Li claimed that Mao never brushed his teeth and only drank tea, so his teeth are green. I think Li really hates Mao to degrade him like that. :-D --Menchi (Talk)â 01:25, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the "facts" in that book and I don't think gossip like this should be inserted without substantial evidence. To believe the word of one man, who has much motive to slander Mao, would not be scientific.

In response to: " Please bring evidence to refute the assertions of his physician before deleting reference to previously published material."

I have already explained why believing "Mao's physician" is not scientific. The book has been refuted by various sources, an example:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:dMdoJQVrMEMJ:www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6173/lizhisui.txt+%22An+Open+Letter+Critiquing%22&hl=en

Furthermore, anybody can say anything they want about a dead person in supposedly "private conversations". Instead of finding "evidence" to refute the "assertions"; it should be evidence to confirm the "assertions". I have not seen anybody confirm the ludicrous gossip in that book.

Also, "assertion": Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof.

That's not good. Why is an encyclopedia relying on something with no proof?--WHDGM

?think the ethics of journalism are probably relevant here. Sometimes a reporter hears a story from one person who claims to be an eye witness. "Bill Clinton met with the Martian delegation on the west lawn of the White House shortly after 1 a.m." There are some "newspapers" that will print such a story as a "fact." Reputable newspapers won't print any story that the reporter hasn't seen himself/herself unless they can get an independent source. The idea is that if two people who have had no chance to get together and fabricate a story tell you the same complicated story you, as a reporter or newspaper publisher, are probably pretty sure that you are not putting out a false story.

What a reporter can do is to report something like this: "Lukie S. created a disturbance at the White House today when he showed up at the visitors gate and demanded admittance in order to personally interview the Martian delegation -- a delegation he claimed to be visiting with President Clinton." That's really a story about Lukie S. unless it turns out later that he really knew what he was talking about, in which case he reenters the story as the first witness to go public. In the meantime, the newspaper is safe in printing a story about the claims made by one Lukie S., but not safe in printing a story about the Martian guests at the White House.

There could be an article on the claims of this physician, and such an article would be the logical place to assemble information about reviews of the book, conflicting claims, dependable evidence, etc. Then, if it looked like it was worth anything, the article on the physician's claims could have a link in this article.

An article on "Homosexuality in the USA" would not ordinarily contain content on the sex life of any individual unless that person's behavior had a major impact on the sex life of the nation, any more than an article on music in Great Britain would reasonably contain a paragraph on the piano playing of Margaret Thatcher. It doesn't appear that any claim is being made either that Mao cracked down on homosexuals to protect himself from claims that he was a homosexual or that Mao did anything to make life easier for [other] homosexuals. So his sexual preferences would seem to be irrelevant. 金 (Kim) 06:45, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I didn't notice the recent recrudescence of this question. Jung Chang's Mao: The Unknown Story makes no reference whatever to the matter, and she certainly doesn't seem to cover anything up. Interestingly there is a picture of the stained teeth (in black and white, so we can't see if they're actually green. There are now a couple of stubs in Wikipedia about Dr Li, his book, and the untrustworthiness thereof. William Avery 19:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I have removed some anonymously added material of 24/8/5 about Mao and and Sun Yat Sen. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. William Avery 13:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

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inaccuracy

Hi, guys, I just can't promise the accuracy of this article, some places still need to be improved. Besides, I am not the expert of this field. Maybe full of errors for the experts. Anyway, correct them if any! (Some content I wrote just a little arbitrary...) --yacht (Talk) 04:31, Jan 5, 2004 (UTC)

Chen Lili

Recently, a transsexual (Chen Lili) was allowed to compete in the the China selection pageant for the Miss Universe competition, is that true? She is really a transexual? She is so pretty a girl! unbelieveable.--Yacht 10:57, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

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Rewrite

I guess we need to rewrite some parts of this article. some structures really suck! Can anyone help? --Yacht (talk) 17:35, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Number

I removed the following sentence from the article, since I found it very confusing, as it sounds as if the number of gays was substantially on the rise and since 480,000 is a number very hard to believe (even the 15 million would be little more than 1% which is already rather low [see Prevalence of homosexuality]). Of course, I don't doubt that there is a study claiming this, I just doubt the correctness. Unless the sentence is rather about "openly gay" people, which would call for clarification --DrZ 23:09, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to one study, Chinese homosexuals have already reached something between 360,000 and 480,000 (another statement based on Chinese government documents and academic studies states the figure is 15 million), the majority male

I also think that figure is too small (about .04%). But you know, there has never had an official survey on this issue like America has (including the sexual orientation in the census), the number of homosexuals in China is very obscure (even in Hong Kong or Taiwan). You are not expecting the government to do this and give out a more accurate figure (i don't believe this will happen in my lifetime). what i can do is quoting sources from other places, not accurate maybe. I try to make some note there. ;p --Yacht (talk) 04:56, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

take a look at that, hopefully, it's not so bad now. --Yacht (talk) 19:29, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

about the removal and the pics

i have removed some content, which doesn't seem to have something to do with the Chinese language:

More recently the contraction "homo" was used; somewhat confusingly this term was used both positively and pejoratively. Nowadays the terms gei (ゲイ, a transliteration of gay) and rezu or rezubian (レズ、レズビアン, transliterations of lesbian) are the most common in the gay community, while pejorative terms like okama (a word of obscure origin literally meaning a cooking pot) are sometimes used.

And, about the pics, is it good to put this actually erotic drawings here? --User:Yacht (talk) 17:41, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

My apologies for the unrelated material, it should have gone to the Japanese page. As for the images, their purpose is not to titillate but to express concepts that can best be expressed through art. They are necessary, and on topic. Haiduc 23:38, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From the standpoint of an average wikipedia enthusiast, I agree with Yacht. The article is "Homosexuality in China"; maybe, if there was a section about the history of erotic art in China, then an image might be appropriate. But of the article's four images, three of them are erotic art, none of which are found in sections about erotic art. It just looks coarse. -154.20.30.222 08:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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There's one good article here which can help[1]. Anyway, I do find some parts of the ancient Chinese portions problematic. It's not detailed enough, neither it is very credible. Mandel 23:50, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

The article seems pro-homosexuality

I think this article needs a litte editing because the read doesn't feel exactly neutral. rather, slight pro-homosexuality.

It doesn't seem any more "pro-homosexuality" than an article titled Heterosexuality in China might seem "pro-heterosexuality". It does focus on homosexuality, and that in itself is enough to make those who are uncomfortable with the subject feel like it's promotion. It seems more useful to bring up specific sentences or topics you consider non-factual or unsourced.Markwiki (talk) 18:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. This article DOES come off as pro-homosexuality promotion. Namely in the Modern China section. The problem being that the section is written in a tone where anything less than being fully accepting and supporting of homosexuality is a "wrong" stance to take, and one that China should eventually rectify. It does not come off as neutral. It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable, it has to do with the article being written from a specific point of view. It has to do with maintaining neutrality. Just read the entire modern china section. I realize that much of America believes that homosexuality should not be opposed in any fashion, but it is a point of view. And not everyone agrees with it, and thus pushing said point of view in this article is not neutral. BeardedScholar (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The template at the btm doesn't seem to be accurate -- "homosexuality in people's republic of china", currently it contains all regions of the great china, including taiwan, hongkong and macao. need any changes? --User:Yacht (talk) 03:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hong Kong

. Added reference to important recent court case in Hong Kong regarding consenting sexual acts between men aged under 21. . Fixed other minor grammatical issues throughout article Ozboy2227 09:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Longyang Jun 龍陽君

I think the information in this: 龍陽君 should be added. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 09:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Homosexuality in the PRC

The PRC disapprove confucian morality. I deleted "confucian morality" from the paragraph on homosexuality in the PRC. --Vess 17:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

So much whining

The PRC neither approves nor disapproves homosexuality and yet there are still people crying about it like it is the most important thing in the world that homosexuality gets pushed to forefront. I agree more education about homosexuality needs to be available to people there because I would assume many young men end up doing stupid things or get taken advantage of because they didn't know any better. But the tone of the article seems whiny to me.66.171.76.241 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Three Kingdoms

I have removed the fellowing lines under the heading 'Same-sex love in literature'

"Another, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, though a military history novel, has male characters that are very close to one another, being described as “oath brothers” that “share the same bed”."

In that era it was common for lords and their subjects to share a bed with the intention of building better relationships and to reinforce the subject's loyalty. It had no implications of a homosexual relationships.

China: Three no's

Regarding this paragraph: ``It is believed that the Chinese policy towards the gay issue remains the "Three nos": no approval, no disapproval, and no promotion (不支持, 不反对, 不提倡).

I question whether the "no disapproval" part of that paragraph is accurate. Later paragraphs go on to say how gay films are banned from being shown in public, police harass gay clubs, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mintariel (talk • contribs) 15:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

PRC/Taiwan/Hongkong

Since the two de-facto countries PRC and ROC go their own way political and cultural since many decades, I ll created a special LGBT rights in Taiwan page with the information given here and elsewhere, shorten the section here and include a link. It's also that there recently happens a lot on the island, especally since the 2007 Pride Parade became that big. 亮HH 01:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Also I'd like to have an own page for Hongkong. Attitude and approach to gay rights differ from the PRC a lot. 亮HH

I guess you forgot to keep the link to LGBT rights in Taiwan. So I've added it to 'see also' part. Don't forget to do that when you are spliting pages for Hong Kong and/or Macau. --Lenyado (talk) 09:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Song of Forgotten Sorrows by Justin Barr

"Author Justin Barr now of San Francisco wrote of his famous troubles seeking acceptance as a homosexual Chinese male in his 2005 novel "Song of Forgotten Sorrows"". I could find no evidence that this book was ever published. Perhaps the author name or the title of the novel are slightly off? Scarykitty (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Good catch - that text was originally added on 2007-08-17 as

Author Justin Barr of San Francisco wrote of his famous troubles seeking acceptance as a homosexual Chinese male in his telling 2005 masterpiece "Song of Forgotten Sorrows"

and the peacock language (since removed) leads me to believe it was a prank. In any case, the fact that we can't readily find it indicates that it's unnotable, so I removed it. —EqualRights (talk) 23:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've added this tag because this article has several issues. The lead must meet Wiki specifications (see Wikipedia:Lead). There are tonal issues and POV issues throughout the entire article (ex. "surprisingly" etc.) and the format of the political section (particularly Hong Kong) and literature needs to be rewritten. Dates should be written out (January 1 2009 vs. 2009-01-01). Finally, large portions of the article lack sources or citations.Luminum (talk) 04:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I've done some work on the In Literature and Ancient China sections. Please let me know what you think:: Markwiki (talk) 04:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Markwiki-it seems some additional edits have been done to the Ancient China section you worked on-do you feel they've done a service/disservice to what you did? Because it as it stands now, the section seems to have some more tone issues. Would you want to revert back to something closer to what you did? Rodaen (talk) 10:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggested Addition:conversion therapy in China

I suggest that something like the following text be added (it is taken from an older version of the Conversion therapy article). I am not sure exactly where or how to add this, however, so I'm posting it here first.

Western psychiatry and psychology were imported into China during a "Westernization Movement" in the late 19th century. That homosexuality was a mental disorder thus became the prevailing view. This view lasted throughout the 1970s, despite changed theoretical models of sexuality orientation in the West, during a period when the Chinese government held a "closed-door" policy on information about human sexuality. After 1980, information became more available, and views began to change. In 1996, the Chinese Psychiatric Association set up a task force to assess the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Based on a study of 54 people, 6 of whom had approached psychiatrists to ask for help in changing their sexual orientation, it concluded that some gay people still had psychological problems. In 2000, under pressure from the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Counseling Association, the Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders (CCMD-III) declassified homosexuality, but added a diagnosis resembling ego-dystonic sexual orientation. Dr. Chen Yanfang, the vice president of the Chinese Psychiatric Association, stated in 2001 that conversion therapy is rarely used in China.

Born Gay (talk) 07:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Xinjiang?

How does the existence of Islamist anti-Han sentiment in Xinjiang province affect public perceptions there? Is it more conservative than eastern Chinese cities? Calibanu (talk) 03:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)User Calibanu

Original research tag

There seems to be some ongoing tone and verifiability issues that sort of seems like there might be some original research happening here. I'd say more specifically in the "Traditional views" section. Rodaen (talk) 09:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I've completely rewritten the section, added references, and expanded the lead. I wasn't able to verify some of the claims made by the article, so they were removed. This article still needs a lot of work.--Beijingdemocracy (talk) 07:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Homosexuality in China/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

No refs. --Ideogram 09:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 09:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 18:12, 29 April 2016 (UTC)