Talk:Dalai Lama/Archive 1

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No Peace in Kalachakra

„There is something radically wrong, that human beings, highly, so-called highly, civilized, with a great deal of knowledge, both psychological and scientific, a great deal of struggle, wars, tears, misery, man has not been able - human beings have not been able to resolve this problem. That is the outward world, what is happening there. And nobody seems to feel it is worthwhile to forget, or drop their own particular beliefs, dogmas, political opinions, theories, conclusions, beliefs, and say, come together and resolve this problem. No politicians will do it, no priest will do it, no psychologist will do it, and the scientists will not do it either. Right?" · J. Krishnamurti

Reasons for Nobel Prize

Why Dalai Lama was awarded a Nobel Prize for Peace? What are the specific things he has done for world peace? Because he did not lauch terrorist attack against China? This article should provide some explanations on that. --128.118.54.193 (Pennsylvania State University) 02:39, 20 July 2006

The dalai lama represents an oppressive and undemocratic regime. The dalai lama being selected by rolling and cutting lumps of dough!!! If the dalai lama and the Tibetan clergy really cared for the Tibetan people in this day and age, they should dismantle their oppressive and undemocratic system, allow Tibetans to choose which religion they want to follow, install democratic processes and allow the freedon of information so individual Tibetans could make informed choices about their lives; just like what Gorbachov did for the USSR. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs) 20:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

HHDL has said more than once that he indeed, felt that while China's invasion was a total disaster for Tibet, it did awake him to the fact that the old feudal system of Tibet desperately needed change. I understand your views of him, but I have to add on the fact that he now prefers democracy to anything else. The Muslims in Tibet too, have lived peacefully (and even inter-marrying) Buddhists in the region for a long time prior to the Chinese invasion, if anything good is to be said in his defense. Besides, that part about cutting dough is actually China's superstitious way of selection - the Tibetans do it via a long test of item recognition etc. I do believe that HHDL won the Nobel for his efforts to campaign for Tibetan freedom above all. --Ajani mgo 21:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


Just take a look at past winners of Nobel Peace Prize, and see how many of them have blood on their hands. 25 Oct 06.

NPOV of Article

I do not see any mention in the article of the record of oppression that has been associated with Dalai Lama rule in Tibet by scholars of the societies under the rulership of the Dalai Lamas. Nor do I see any reference to the 14th Dalai Lama's ties to Fascism on either this pageor the Tenzin Gyatso (14th/current Dalai Lama) page. The oppressive and gruesome methods that were used in old Tibet and which have been associated with the rule of Dalai Lamas were in fact condemned by the current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. However, to my knowledge he has never condemned the fascists or admitted public regret in his ties to them.

Perhaps these elements could be mentioned under the sub heading of Controversy, or another new sub-heading. Ideas? I believe that the lacking of these elements is an NPOV issue. The article does not give any indication that there was any dissent to the rule of the Dalai Lama line much less any indication that such dissent was based in reasonable reaction to various aspects of oppression. I wish to discuss this. Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)Talk | @

Here are some links to information regarding my point:

Michael Parenti

Dave Emory

(Real Audio streams of the For The Record (FTR) broadcasts are available in the link under the date of broadcast beneath the header of each summary on the For The Record (Summaries of the Weekly Radio Program by Anti-Fascist Researcher Dave Emory) site pages and can also be found at the Audio Archives for Dave Emory).

Christopher Hitchens

Furthermore, upon reflection of this research it may be appropriate to start a sub heading called Ties to Fascism. Ideas? Feedback? Anyone? --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 05:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)Talk | @

The Tenzin Gyatso page has references to the Parenti and the Hitchens points. I still think some mention should be made in this article concerning the rulership of the Dalai Lamas, and the oppression (ie pulling out of tongues) that had occured. I think that the Fascist ties would be better placed on the 14th Dalai Lama's page but a reference to that might be made here. Ideas, feedback? --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)Talk | @
The article currently lacks any description of what sort of government the various Dalai Lamas had in Tibet. This is an interesting subject and I would heartened if someone were to add information about it. It's important, as usual, that anything added be balanced and factual.
Can you elaborate in a quick summary what the claims are that the Dalai Lama has ties to fascists? I haven't had a chance to read all the sources you give yet, and I'd like to know what to focus on. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

RESPONSE: The short answer: I would suggest the reading of the Parenti article and FTR#548 - (scroll down to and read section 9) for an overview of the old Tibet, and I would suggest the following for a quick review of some of the fascist ties of the 14th Dalai Lama: FTR#547 sections 2, 4, 6, 8, & 9.

The Michael Perenti article listed above overviews the Old Tibet and demonstrates that it was far from a Shangri-La. The Article is well written and heavily annotated with references to support his statements. The style, form and operation of government, and the life of the people under their rule deserves mention in this Wikipedia article. It is a point as I understand it of the PRC position that they "freed" the people from the oppression of the religious caste. NPOV would require that this be addressed.

Also, that the high priests or other courtiers killed 5 Dalai Lamas during a 170 year span should be mentioned. The article in its present state makes it seem like the successions were always due to the DL dying of natural causes, not even hinting that some were killed by his own people. That such occurred to some 5 DLs is reminiscent of the Roman Emperors and the Praetorian Guard and should be given at least mention here. Parenti draws info in part from The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet which seems to hold a sympathetic view of the Chinese occupation as mentioned in the off-site link here provided. I should like to have confirmation from at least one other source regarding the assassinations of the 5 Dalai Lamas. I am still researching it.

The rulership of old Tibet may perhaps better be described as more of an oppressive feudal Theocracy than Fascism in character still, the ties of the 14th Dalai Lama to fascists and fascist organizations prior to and after his exile should also be documented, if not here in detail than mentioned and referenced to a more detailed description on the Tenzin Gyatso page (were such details would also need to be written). The fascists were attracted to Tibet in part because of the tactics used by the ruling class to keep lower classes in line. That the continued affiliation by the 14th Dalai Lama may possibly be an action in support of his mission to help people towards enlightenment and that he may be trying to guide these people in that regard may also be something worth exploring, but citations would be needed.

The following link is a to an off-site page containing a series of links that show some of the difficulties that have been encountered in Buddhist cultures, including Tibet, due to oppression from their rulers and so forth: Critical Links to Buddhism and Lamaism. This is worth a quick perusal to see the scope of supporting materials available.

If I recall correctly, the Emory research (which must be read as well as listened to as he doesn't have everything documented in both medias- though most of it is), during WWII Nazi SS officers made an expedition to Tibet and were impressed with the Tibetan enforcement of rulership. They speculated that the Tibetans were of the Aryan race and proceeded to create a voluminous mass of material to support this. Nazis later convicted of war crimes were associating with the Dalai Lama at this time and later in exile. The DL via direct and circuitous routes has financial and political ties with the Aum Shinrikyo cult, the Hapsburgs, the Uighur rebellion, The Hapsburgs (read Underground Reich) and other elements to numerous to go into here but are available via the links provided in this discussion.

I also wish to be clear: fascist elements being pointed out in Buddhism or with the DL are not a condemnation of either, but a fact that should not be discounted. That some practitioners of Buddhism may have fascist leanings or ties is not an indictment of Buddhism itself.

Please let me know if this answers your question. Thanks for your interest. --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 21:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)Talk | @

Based on the readings upon, it appears that the Dalai Lamas' fascist links consist of 1) Various Nazi German elements took an interest in Tibet before and during the war; 2) The current Dalai Lama (when he was a child) had a personal friendship with Heinrich Harrer, a minor SS official; 3) The exile government made the distasteful decision to include a Nazi war-criminal/Tibetologist, Bruno Beger, in a panel of Westerners who had visited Tibet before the PRC occupation; 4) The current Dalai Lama had some sort of dealings with Shoko Asahara, the Japanese cult leader whose doomsday visions apparently involved some kind of theocratic government. 5) It's not clear what connection the Habsburgs or the Uighurs might have to the issue of fascism. Is there anything else major that I've missed? - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Why even bother with this junk? Comparing HH to Hitler is like comparing a demon with an dakini. I have met the Dalai Lama in person. People are so ignorant and so careless about what they post and lie. It is sick! Me 20:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the Parenti article relies mostly on the book "The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet" by the Gelders, who were obvious Maoist apologists. I don't understand how a Yale professor (Parenti) could have overlooked such an easily discredited source. I wonder at Parenti's real motives for printing his article and besmirching the Dalai Lama; I argue that any references to Parenti should be DELETED, as should anything that quotes, paraphrases or refers to Parenti's historical speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.91.201.181 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 23 July 2007
I agree. Have the claims in the Parenti been confirmed by Tibetan historians? What is the point of including the references to the assassination of the first 5 Dalai Lamas? Is it just interesting trivia? Or is it intended to damage the Dalai Lamas's reputation as a proponent of peace? I just don't see the value, and I think the Parenti reference should be deleted. Loki125 20:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I agree that the Parenti article is of little value because Parenti is not a reliable historian. However, with regard to the assassinations, bear in mind that this is an article about the Dalai Lamas in general, rather than the current Dalai Lama in particular.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 02:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

External Link : The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know

Does anybody else think the external link above would be helpful? I have posted it to this article, but it was removed by Hottentot. Please give an opinion. I personally, believe that the link is extremely relavent to the article.--FT in Leeds 02:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The link is a good one, but it belongs on the Panchen Lama page as it concerns the 11th Panchen Lama controversy. technopilgrim 01:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Dalai Lama and the HH title

I noted a disagreement between user 207.74.176.221 and Fuzheado about the use of the title "His Holiness". The fact is that the Government of Tibet in Exile uses this title when refering to the Dalai Lama. However, articles about people in encyclopedias should not use people titles without referencing it. I would suggest to rephrase the intro as the following:

The Dalai Lama (also known as "His Holiness The Dalai Lama" according to buddhists) belongs to the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism.

Waiting for your feedback and comments. Svest 13:56, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

---- That's tough. Your wording is certainly more NPOV. OTOH, as often in such cases, it is more complicated, and the information gained per word is very little. It seems that people who deny the epiteth tend to generally not believe in religious concepts, so it has less meaning for them anyway.

We have several precedents where Wikipedia or even most of the world adopts the terms used by followers or those close to the subject:

  • Holy See
  • Church of Scientology – not everyone agrees that this even is a church; yet, in the article it is commonly referred to as "the church" or "The Church".
  • the title The Honourable does not mean that Wikipedia endorses the honour of a thus labelled person.
  • Democratic People's Republic of Korea

On the other hand, assume a dictator calls himself "benefactor of mankind" and kills everyone who doesn't pay him this honour then i would strongly oppose this here.

So I guess you can find arguments for both sides. Personally, i'd prefer the direct title in this case because most people in the free world would agree that the Dalai Lama is closer to a holy person than to a malevolent dictator. — Sebastian (T) 02:21, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

I totally agree with your comment Sebastian. - Svest 18:23, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
Not one of those examples serves as a precedent that could parallel the proposed use in this article of "HH" before "DL" (other than in quotes to show how those who use it do so):
  • Holy See is a short article principally about the distinctions between the RC Archdiocese of Rome and the state of the Vatican City; while it could be argued that it should be moved to Archdiocese of Rome (leaving the current title as a redirect), it combines the virtues of brevity and clarity, and is not so prominent an article (less so than Vatican City, let alone Pope) as to motivate many of us to worry long about it.
  • Church of Scientology is an article about the organization with (not that it matters much) that legal name, separate from the article on Scientology, the belief system that it promotes. The "Church" name is more widely recognized than any other for the organization, and it conforms to the policy that disambiguation of names without using such parenthetic suffixes as (in this case) "(organization)" and "(belief system)" is preferred. (BTW, modern usage is pretty loose about accepting things as churches; the Universal Life Church ordained the Rev. Jefferson F**** Poland of Sexual Freedom League fame, and included the Shiva Fellowship, whose sole sacrament, in honor of Shiva the Destroyer, was the destruction of cannabis in burnt sacrifices.)
  • The Honourable is an article that reports on the use of that expression in various settings; it no more advocates anyone by it than the article F*** advocates use of that term in place of sexual intercourse. (IIRC, there are plenty of articles that do apply titles that are at least similar to "The Honourable", to individuals within the British nobility and officialdom. But the persistence of most of them may well reflect giving lower priority to fixing articles on people less prominent than the DL.)
  • Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a redirect to North Korea, an article that mentions that long name but always refers to the country by the article's (two-word) title.
And tho it shouldn't need to be said, neither the extremely valid opinion expressed above (viz., that the DL deserves an honorific more than would the hypothetical brutal egomaniacal dictator), nor that opinion's prevalence, is of any interest whatsoever to this discussion.
--Jerzy (t) 04:06, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)

(still on topic within the same section:) ...Let me count the ways: User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters's rv of the insertion of His Holiness obviated that item on my to-do list, but more could be said about the insertion's unsuitability. Not only was the reverted edit in violation of NPoV, it also violates the rules of context that apply to such titles. Have you ever heard the expression "Their Majesties, the 98 Kings of England" or "Their Holinesses, the Popes"? Such titles are applied only to a single person (and if i am not mistaken, only to a living person -- you can't libel a dead person, nor perhaps honor anything but the memory of them), or in a borderline case, to a very specific and small group (i would imagine "Would Your Majesties like a cuppa?" is appropriate to a king and queen) and never to a class of people or to the office itself: e.g. not "and on Tuesday he was crowned His Majesty King of England".
This talk page's article is not about the current DL, whom some refer to (in PoV fashion) as HH or HH the DL. It is about the office and all those who have held it. (-- a fact that i will make less obscure than even the current text does, in the lead 'graph in a moment.)
--Jerzy (t) 04:06, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)

See the article on His Holiness to understand why its use does not violate NPOV. It is always proper etiquette to refer to the Pope, the Dalai Lama, various patriarchs, etc., as "His Holiness". This usage in no way implies an endorsement of the respective religion or that particular person's claim to his position. It is merely a term of respect and should be used when refering to the person in a formal context. technopilgrim 01:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
It is not uncommon for a leader of people or the head of a religious organization, to dictate how they are best addressed. Even among the English peerage there is some lattitude as to how they style their name and form of addresss. Though usually, once decided it's a done deal. I have no difficulty with the inclusiion of HH for the Dalai Lama.Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)Talk | @

81.131.92.73 22:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC) There are many people who give themselves self-styled titles. Think of all the (in English trnaslations) HM's, HRH's, Kings, Queens, Princes, Princesses, etc from deposed former European royal houses, all waiting to jump back on the gravy train of hereditary rulership. If hh wants his title, let him have it, let him have his ego trip. Where does the self-styled 'Exiled Government of Tibet' actually govern? 28 Oct 06.

Lama, Reincarnations, and the Dalai Lama

Rephrased slightly. Lama is someone who teaches, a guru. While those who reincarnate are called tulku. - ExitControl

Someone removed the list of previous Dalai Lamas with the argument that it could also be gotten from the Reference. While this is true, it is no reason to remove the information from the Wiki. As can be seen at meta:When should I link externally, Wikipedia is not meant to provide links to information, but the information itself. Providing information through links is a very useful thing to do, but it is something that is done on other sites.Andre Engels

HH Dalai Lama is not the leader of the Gelug tradition, this is associated with the so called Ganden Tripa that is usually selected for a 2-4 year position amongst the former abbots of the two Gelug tantric colleges (Gyoto and Gyome). However, HH Dalai Lama is trained under the Gelug tradition, Lharampa Geshe Degree, and also is considered a master of the four main Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Kent Sandvik

None of the Dalai Lamas seems to have taken over in the same year as the previous one died. This makes me suspicious of the dates -- could we have some explanation of the interregnums? Mswake 19:48 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Just added why there is a gap.

The reincarnation manifests himself by signs such as being familiar with the possessions of the previous Dalai Lama.

The above assumes the truth of reincarnation. I'd prefer for the article not to take a stand one way or another on reincarnation. So how about:

The people searching for the new Dalai Lama believe that the previous one will manifiest himself in the new one...

Or:

The searchers consider familiarity with the possesions, etc., as signs of the reincarnation.

--Uncle Ed


I think the existing text has been made neutral enough.
-- Zack 19:38, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
It's not neutral and it's not sensical. Why would memories of physical objects be preserved through reincarnation but not the tenets of the religion? If that's true, and the spiritual wisdom of the Dalai Lama is merely the result of re-education every time, what's the use of "finding" him at all? Oh, right, to preserve political lineage.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.245.16 (talk) 02:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

How did the idea of having a Dalai Lama begin? Why is the first one in 1391? Why didn't it begin earlier or later? Meelar 04:40, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The fact is that the title "Dalai Lama" was given by third Dalai Lama 's disciple and powerful Mongol ruler Altan Khan in 1578. The third Dalai Lama was the incarnation of the first two Dalai Lama but they weren't called by that title in their time.
This may not anser you, but the idea of incarnation was not so old. The Geluk school borrowed this idea from another sect. That new school needed a strong leader. The Geluk school actively preached their ideas to the Mongols and reunified Tibet by their force.--Nanshu 00:36, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The word "passing" in reference to what I will call the "death" of the Dalai Lama seems needlessly euphamistic to my western eyes. Would it be acceptable to use the word "death" to describe the future state of the current Dalai Lama? It would make the article clearer to me. -- Ke4roh 16:26, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. :) Since no-one objected, I've gone ahead and changed it. Markalexander100 08:58, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

  • Every other Buddhist sect in Tibet recognises the Dalai Lama as the religious ... leader of all Tibet.
  • In fact, the Panchen Lama has a higher religious status than the Dalai Lama

I don't quite see how these can both be right. Markalexander100 06:58, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • I suggest replace "in Tibet" with "Tibetan". That's because in Chinese Tibet no Budhist sect recognizes Dalai Lama, at least officially (there is risk of getting a lengthy prison term for this offence).


The dalai lama represents an oppressive and undemocratic regime. The dalai lama being selected by rolling and cutting lumps of dough!!! If the dalai lama and the Tibetan clergy really cared for the Tibetan people in this day and age, they should dismantle their oppressive and undemocratic system, allow Tibetans to choose which religion they want to follow, install democratic processes and allow the freedon of information so individual Tibetans could make informed choices about their lives; just like what Gorbachov did for the USSR.


194.60.106.5 13:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Do any other Buddhist leaders in eg Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Burma, India etc. recognise dl as a leading Buddhist?

Enlightenment

I deleted "Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings who have postponed their own nirvana and chosen to take rebirth to serve humanity" and linked the previous sentence to "Bodhisattva" instead. Quite apart from the contradiction (surely enlightened beings are those who have attained nirvana?) the whole idea of postponement is fraught with problems. See e.g. Paul Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, pp.52-3 Shantavira 08:01, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The fact is that there are different levels of Enlightenment. So there are Enlightened beings who can reach Nirvana after death, reach Nirvana after several lives, those who reached "Nirvana in this life". As to boddhisattvas, they are not necessarily enlightened. Boddhisattva is the one that helps others at the expense of his own enlightenment, so he may not achieve it in one life. You may read about it in jatakas: Shakyamuni reincarnating as rabbit and in hell. What distinguishes Boddhisattva is his desire to help the others, so he practices for others, not himselt and did not achieve Enlightenment yet.

There are no "levels of Enlightenment" in Buddhism. Perhaps anon is thinking of the bhumis? Shantavira 11:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed the phrase:
...,though Tenzin Gyatso (brtan 'dzin rgya mtsho) denies claims of his Buddhahood.
As the Dalai Lama is believed to be the incarnation of a Bodhisattva, I would think he has no right to claim any buddhahood? If you want to put the sentence back in, please add on what grounds he can claim.
BTW: I feel "incarnation" might be a better word instead of "manifestation", but I'll leave the verdict to the experts.
This is quite a large discussion. With so many active writers interested in the subject, maybe the articles for Panchen Lama and for Bodhisattva could be improved.
--BjKa 09:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What does Gyatso mean? It appeared in most of the Dalai Lamas' names. --Menchi 08:06, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ocean. Markalexander100 08:09, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I thought it was Dalai that means "ocean". --Menchi 08:38, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dalai in Mongolian. Gyato in Tibetan. Different languages, different words. ;-) Markalexander100 01:54, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That makes sense! --Menchi 01:55, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The only enlightenment that is real is the enlightenment begun in 17century Europe, and continues today. This enlightenment aimed to sort out reality from fantasy, and requires a lot of work and intellect from many people. 81.155.103.36 10:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

China's Cancer Religion.

If Buddhism isn't a religion then why can't the followers of the knowledge of Buddhism exist in proper Chinese society? If Buddhism isn't a religion, then why do they have monks? Are Buddhist monks, greedy? Monks are using others' donations and work so as to have more time for the seeking enlightenment? Workers can't afford to pray all day if they want to eat, so are monks in bad karma if they are leeching off others? Tibet region is racially Chinese, so way are some westerners causing China strife by supporting a Tibetan Government? Does Buddhism make people into zombies, tolerant of anything. The teaching of weakness? If so then China has a right to squash this religion that is a cancer of the mind. As far as I can see, Buddism is a religon and it's trying to be too political.

If this is how react to Tibetan Buddhism I can only imagine what Falun Gong must do to your blood pressure. Calm down, everything is going to be OK. technopilgrim 01:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Dalai, gyatso, ocean- whatever, but Tibet is land locked, so how would the Tibetans of bygone age imagine what this title meant?

Buddhism is officially sanctioned by the Chinese government as one of the five approved faith groups (2 Christian groups, Islam, Daoism, Buddhim). Beijing itself says that Buddhism is OK and that the quest for enlightenment is suitable for the Chinese people.
82.34.112.4 14:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


194.120.163.5 12:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Buddhism is officially sanctioned by the Chinese Government. However 'lama Buddhism' is not true 'Buddhism'. The Tibetan religion is animism with some buddhism added. An analogy is Mormonism and main stream Christianity. Although Mormons claim they are Christians, their version of Christ is not accepted by the main stream Christians.

Perhaps you should first learn a bit about Tibetan Buddhism before criticising it.... rudy 20:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

81.131.92.73 21:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC) I have not criticised lama Buddism at all. I have simply stated the facts and gave the analogy of Mormonism and main stream Christianity. As for learning, perhaps you should learn a bit about science before jumping on the band wagon of lama Buddism. Science may be a bit more difficult, but a lot more rewarding. 28 Oct 06

194.60.106.5 09:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC) In fact science goes some way into answering, explaining and finding solutions to the questions the Buddha asked that drove him into a life of asceticism in the first place. 1 Nov 06.

Religion in present China is another subject matter. Beijing consider itself the God of Gods. Religion is fine as long as almighty reports to Beijing. Regligious schools are run by the government and future monks/priests etc are taught to be faithful to communism instead of the Budda or Vatican. Hence there are the offical sanctioned religions and the underground religions. Ex only the Pope can appoint Cardinals (hope I got this right; but the point is the same) but Beijing appoints it's own Cardinal w/o approval of the Pope.

Who is the Pope? Does he represent Protestants? Don't Catholics treat every other religion (Christian or otherwise) as heretics? Does Beijing appoint Cardinals? Who is Buddha? 'Beijing consider itself God of Gods' is a phrase invented by you because God is not a required communist belief. Discussion within these pages must surely be based on intelligent discussions of facts and not fictitious personal inventions. 17 Nov 06 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.60.106.5 (talk)

The Pope won't even allow the man in the link below to have a funeral of his choice. The government of China allows more religious freedom than the Vatican government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6207857.stm

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